Ex-FBI Chefverhandler Gary Noesner über Beziehung, Empathie und Ego

Matthias: Ladies and gentlemen, the first podcast interview in English, and I have a really nice guy here: the ex-boss of the FBI Crisis Negotiation Unit, Mr. Gary Noesner. He also was the lead negotiator at Waco. This was a catastrophic thing in the '90s, but he learned a lot from it. He then changed the way negotiation was done at the FBI unit and founded a new concept, the Behavioral Change Stairway Model. Today we learn a little bit more about my friend Gary Noesner, with whom I had the chance to do a training in Prague during the Negoticon. We also connect his framework to sales, and he will tell you why people do what you want when you really, really listen to them. And maybe he has some nice stories about his time, where people listened to him and the catastrophic situation didn't happen. Gary, it's so nice to see you again after, I think, two years since we saw each other at the training. So how are you doing?

Gary Noesner: I'm doing well, Matthias. Good to see you again. As always, I enjoy our conversations and our friendship. Wonderful.

Matthias: A little bit of introduction, because most people on my side asked why you went from working with numbers – in German we say Buchhalter, you do balances, etc. – to the FBI. So maybe a little bit of storytelling: What was Gary before, 40 years ago?

Gary Noesner: Well, I wanted to be an FBI agent from when I was about eight years old. Eventually I went to college and studied, and I joined the FBI and spent 30 years there in a variety of different capacities: as an investigator, working criminal cases, terrorism, foreign counterintelligence, a lot of different areas. But I also became a hostage negotiator fairly early in that specialty coming to law enforcement. It was started by the New York City Police Department in 1973, and the following year the FBI adopted it and started teaching it around the United States and around the world. It was a new concept. Instead of just aggressively confronting perpetrators holding hostages and threatening their lives, we now gave law enforcement officers tools to open a channel of communication, to try to defuse tense situations and convince perpetrators to cooperate, to surrender peacefully and release their hostages. The results were quite dramatic with this new, more thoughtful, patient approach to dealing with crisis. I eventually became the chief of the FBI's Crisis Negotiation Unit after the infamous 1993 Waco incident, but I worked a lot of prison riots, embassy sieges, hijackings, overseas kidnappings, right-wing militia standoffs – so my team and I gained a lot of experience in dealing with a wide range of critical situations.

Gary Noesner: And the number one takeaway that I learned through all the 30 years I was negotiating in the FBI was that very often how we say something is more important than what we say. You mentioned business negotiations and law enforcement negotiations, and there are clearly differences, but there are also some similarities. I think a lot of business negotiation focuses on what you say and when you say it, how you present the deal, how you make a counteroffer, what's your best alternative. That's all good stuff, but it's not where I focus. For me, what's critically important is this: you can follow all the business prescriptions in negotiations, but unless you develop a positive relationship, you're less likely to be successful. I think everything is about relationships. And in that context, it's not so much what you say, but how you say it. Do you come across as someone authentic and sincere and genuine and likable? There are ample psychological studies that show that people want to work with the people they like and respect, feel a kinship to of a sort. And I think that's the primary thing we overlook. We tend to be very quick to get into the particulars of the deal: I'm selling this, I want you to buy it, so many units, this is my cost. Well, I can't sell it to you for that, but you've got to –

Matthias: These certificates, blah blah blah. We all know it.

Gary Noesner: That's great stuff, but it's not what I do. My theory on all of this is that first we create a relationship, and then that allows us to have more influence. In the FBI, I created the Behavioral Change Stairway Model, which is widely used around the world.

Matthias: And you founded it. It was your idea.

Gary Noesner: It basically outlines a general view of how we gain influence. We gain influence by having some rapport, and we get that rapport through creating a positive relationship. We start by using active listening skills to demonstrate our empathy. And empathy is not "I feel sorry for you". Empathy is "I understand what you're saying". So I might say: Matthias, I understand that the business environment in Europe has been very challenging for the following reasons, and this has created problems for a lot of people in business. Now, if I had listened to you say that and then I feed it back in my own words, I'm not simply telling you that I understand. I'm showing you I understand. I'm demonstrating it. I have just proven by what I have said that I listened and understood not only what you may or may not be going through, but how you feel about it. It sounds so simple, and in many ways it is, but so many people don't do it, and it's such a powerful tool. In law enforcement, we would confront a guy robbing a bank – he's trapped in the bank and he's threatening to kill a hostage unless he gets a getaway car. He's probably in the bank because he's having all kinds of problems in life adjusting to whatever challenges he's faced. Maybe he's got home problems, work problems. Maybe he's been in jail before. And instead of just saying "come out or we're going to come in and get you", you say: How are you feeling in there? What's going on? You sound like you're really having a difficult day, and I'm here to help you. I don't want to see you get hurt. It's something they don't expect. And you become a lifeline, a sort of an anchor for these people to hold on to, to help them get through a crisis.

Matthias: Maybe you're one of the first persons in his life – this is what I got out of the Negoticon when I was talking to you and the other ex-FBI trainers – the first time that someone really listened to them. For sure, it was a job for you, and after you cleared the situation, you're out. But for them, maybe it was the first situation where they really felt understood.

Gary Noesner: If you think about it – not necessarily in the bank robbery context, but when people are in an emotional crisis – what they're really saying is: I'm angry, I'm frustrated, I'm unhappy, I feel unappreciated. I feel a sense of loss – of a job, a relationship, pride, whatever it is. And no one's listening to me. No one's paying attention. Therefore, I'm going to get louder, more demonstrative, more violent to get people's attention. So you could surmise that if we give them that undivided attention and we acknowledge in our own words what we hear from them, it reduces the need for them to continue to be violent. Why are you yelling at me? I'm listening to you and I'm trying to help you. It's a powerful, powerful tool. And I think it does have applicability in the business context. Again, far too many of the business negotiation presenters that I have seen drop right into the steps you take, the specific things – and that is good stuff, I'm not criticizing it – but we cannot and should not overlook the value of creating a positive impression. How many times have you been to a social function, a business conference, and you meet someone for the first time and you walk away saying: I really enjoyed meeting that person. They were interested in me. They asked questions about what I do. I think I'd like to be in touch with that person again; maybe we could do some business together. That's what we want to replicate. If you want to be a successful person in sales or in human resources and managing other people, first and foremost we listen to understand, and then we'll get an opportunity to share our ideas. Stephen Covey, the business guru, said: first seek to understand, and then to be understood. So our first priority is to say: I want to understand what this other person is saying, what they're dealing with, what problems they have. And only when I've invested the time in that, maybe that person says: Well, what do you think, Gary? And now it's my chance to say: Here's something you might consider doing, or here's how I think my company can add more value to resolving the problems that your company is facing with your distribution, whatever it might be. But first, don't just rush in there and say: This is what I want from you. Instead: I want to understand you.

Matthias: I really would like to understand you. Let's make it a little bit more practical for our listeners: How did you approach conferences in the past? Because it's a really good example. When I see people at conferences, trainings, big training environments, they go through the crowd and say: Hey, how are you doing? Yeah, I'm this person, I sell this. What are you selling? Okay, give me your business card, etc. That's the classic. So how did you approach this? I think you went to a lot of conferences and really made an impact when you met other people, and they said: Meeting Gary, this was a really great thing.

Gary Noesner: Well, it's certainly more conducive in a smaller group where you have time and you're spending more time with a class, a workshop, and you can have those side conversations. If I'm typically giving a two-hour speech and there are 300 people in the audience, you don't have much time for individual engagement. But what you try to do – I have a goal of saying: I hope the audience can come away with two or three things to think about that might help them be better negotiators. Ask open-ended questions. Paraphrase – use your own words to describe what somebody's saying; don't use the exact same words, put it in your words. And identify the emotions you hear: Matthias, you sound very confused, or: I'm picking up that you're angry, is that correct? These are important, very basic communication skills that really help create a positive relationship. The other thing I think is really important is that we have to do away with fear of failure. I think most bad negotiations result from people being fearful that they will say the wrong thing, do the wrong thing, and it becomes constricted. They become uptight, as we would say, and now they come across as not authentic. My view is: I have confidence in my product. I'm going to present it in the best way possible. I hope the client will accept it. But I'm not going to win every deal. And the reason I'm not going to win every deal is because I don't control anything other than myself. I hope I'm going to make this sale, but if I don't, it may not have anything to do with my presentation. The decision may have already been made. The person I'm dealing with may not make the decision. It could simply be ruled by the finance people who make the decision on lowest cost. So there are a lot of factors involved. Don't get so uptight. I'm going to do the best I can. I'm going to be successful most of the time. I'm not going to be successful all of the time, but that's okay.

Matthias: That's okay. But in your case, if you're not successful every time, maybe a person died. To be honest, how can you cope with this situation? You do your best, you're trained well, but you can't win every negotiation. And maybe another person dies then.

Gary Noesner: Yeah, but we normally were in the high 90 percentile, maybe 95 to 98 percent chance of success.

Matthias: Wow.

Gary Noesner: Now, it's always tragic when an innocent life is lost. Who's responsible for that loss of life? It certainly is not the negotiator or the negotiating team. And you cannot say anything that's going to make somebody else kill somebody. So you have to develop a little bit of a thick skin that says: I'm not God. I don't control this situation, but I'm going to do my level best to make sure everyone comes out alive. If they don't, it's not because of my lack of sincere, genuine effort, and it's not my decision that did that. I do the best I can, and I go to sleep at night knowing I did the best I can. It's tough when there's loss of life. It's an emotional kick, you know, between the legs. But fortunately, the path is: don't take that ownership. This comes up mostly for police with suicides. There's no bad guy per se. There's just someone who is depressed, sad, confused. They want to take their own life. And if you negotiate with enough of them, someone will kill themselves, regardless of your effort, regardless of your sincerity.

Matthias: He made the decision.

Gary Noesner: Statistically, it's going to happen if you do enough of them. And it's not your fault. You have to understand that, because if you take ownership of that, it's going to tear you apart. So you have to know the limitations of what you can do. We have this – I don't know if you ever heard of it – it's called the Serenity Prayer. It's not in a religious context, but it basically says – I'm going to paraphrase it, I can't remember the exact words – give me the insight to know what I can do and what I can't do, and to understand the difference. This I control: me, how I present myself, how I negotiate. I can control that.

Matthias: Where are my borders? What can I do, what can't I do?

Gary Noesner: Yeah. And I think that is the most important thing to understand: it's okay. You're a human being. You're flawed. We are all flawed. We all make mistakes. We all do things well, but we all make mistakes. Nobody's perfect. I see some of these gurus out there – they're the perfect negotiator and they make every deal.

Matthias: Okay, 100 percent sure, great negotiation.

Gary Noesner: Good for you. But I'm not one of those, and I've probably worked a lot more cases than most people. You do what you can, you're sincere and genuine, and you're going to be successful most of the time, but not all the time.

Matthias: I think a lot of people tried to sell you something, from your young age on. On the one hand: What was the biggest mistake they made? And also, when they sold you something, small or big, it doesn't matter – what was the greatest thing they did right, so that you bought it?

Gary Noesner: I'm not sure if I'm answering that the way you intended, but when I was an early negotiator, I relied more on what I said. I think I talked too much, trying to convince the person of what I wanted to do. And through experience and wisdom, you learn that listening is far better. The easy way to say this is: you have to earn the right to be of influence. You don't just get it because I'm an FBI agent, or because I'm an important sales representative for this company. You still have to invest the time and effort in establishing that you're a good person, that you're worthy of their time and respect. I even put it this way: even when a deal is not going to go your way, it's okay to say: Matthias, we've spent a couple of days talking about the situation. It doesn't look like we're going to be able to close this deal. I understand, I just can't come down on the price point. Listen, I understand you're going to go with another vendor. That's fine. If you find out down the road that they're not able to perform at the level you wanted, I hope you'll give us another opportunity. This has happened to me in real life as a consultant quite a few times –

Matthias: Absolutely.

Gary Noesner: – where somebody will go for the lowest cost and end up being disappointed in the product. So I think that's an important thing to remember: Just don't burn a bridge. Come back to these people and say: Okay, listen, I understand, it's not a perfect world. And don't act like you need it more than they do. That is one little tip.

Matthias: The needy thing. Yeah.

Gary Noesner: Just behave like: Okay, I'm sorry it didn't work out, but I think when you pursue these other avenues, you'll come back and find that we did offer more than other people. But that's fine. I wish you luck. I hope you're successful. But if you're not, you know how to reach us. It's amazing how many times those do come around.

Matthias: How did you cope with failing situations in your area of work in the past? I think about the first failing situation, which was Waco, because the people who wanted to storm the situation overruled you. And in your book "Stalling for Time" – ladies and gentlemen, "Stalling for Time", one of the best books I ever read, a small book from Gary, and I can only recommend it – you said that after they went back home, you called all of them and told them: Guys, it was not your fault. Stand up, and we'll find solutions for the next time, something like this. How did you cope with this? Because you were responsible for the situation, or maybe you felt like it, and also your team felt like it. How did you cope with the situation, for yourself and for your team? And what was then the hero story, like in Disney – how did you come out of the situation?

Gary Noesner: Your audience may not know enough about it, but in 1993 there was a major standoff in Texas between a religious cult and the government. The FBI managed that incident. There were 35 people that my team negotiated out, including 21 children, and I'm gratified by that. However, there was great conflict within the FBI as to whether to continue a less confrontational negotiation approach versus a more strident demonstration of power with tactical pressure to force them out. And those two, as you might imagine, are in contradiction. You can't do them both at the same time. So eventually the leadership in the FBI decided to take a more confrontational approach. I was relieved and sent home. They brought in someone else, and no one else came out because of that harder approach. The FBI put in tear gas. A fire started. And after 51 days, the compound burned down, killing over 75 people. So a real tragedy, and a lot of lessons were learned from that. Number one was that the negotiation program was recognized as having had the right approach, and that influenced future incidents that the FBI was involved in. But what I felt as a leader of a team: Yes, it bothered me personally a great deal. Significant loss of life, knowing we could have done better. But I felt it was my responsibility to reach out to the 20, 30 negotiators who had worked for me out there and to let them know that I was proud of what they had done, the contribution they made, the lives they saved, and that what happened was not a result of their failure. I think it's important that a leader does that, and doesn't allow their people to feel a sense of responsibility for something that was not under their control. It's in keeping with what we were talking about earlier.

Matthias: Yeah, this was a great part in your book, where I really felt that this is real leadership: to tell the people "you were right, but maybe someone in the back made other decisions, and we cannot do anything against this". This was really helpful, and I teach this also when I do leadership trainings. I say: Hey guys, there were a lot of people who died, but Gary told them: We are not responsible for this. We did our best, and other people overruled us. And then: how much training? Because sometimes in sales trainings or negotiation trainings, people say: Yeah, I'm not successful after one or two months. And then I say: You know, my friend Gary, he did around – I don't know – over 2,000 negotiation situations in the past 30, 40 years.

Gary Noesner: I don't know what the number is.

Matthias: Maybe more, around the world. And then they ask: How much did he train? And I said: I need to ask him. So how much did you train to be so successful?

Gary Noesner: Well, obviously there's the initial training you get as a negotiator, but then it becomes sort of on-the-job training. Every case you work, you learn things that you did well, and you learn things that were problems and you should avoid. From that, you're constantly updating your skills. Now, part of my job was not just to respond to situations, but to teach negotiation. So I found the two things very complementary. One: because I was going to real cases, it allowed me to be a better teacher and talk about realistic experiences. And because I was a teacher, it allowed me to have more information readily available in my brain to draw from in these situations. I'm not sure if that answers your question.

Matthias: You trained a lot, and on the job. And what I also took out of the session in Mainz and in Prague: I asked what the environment is like when you have these negotiation situations. And one of your colleagues said: We have a lot of people there and a lot of coaches who coach us during a hostage situation. This is what I found really impactful – that they don't only look at the situation, but within the situation they have a lot of coaches, co-negotiators, et cetera. And also, you can't negotiate for 96 hours in a row. Maybe you do it one time in your life, and that's it. You can hand over to other negotiators, and the trust in the negotiator who comes into the situation is almost the same as the trust in the person who leaves. In the first moment I found that really strange. But at the end of the day, that means that you bond with this person a lot in the first moment.

Gary Noesner: What you're talking about there is that negotiation is really a team effort. The objective is to leverage the experience, the knowledge, the skills of a team of negotiators – three, four, five, whatever it is – and we're opposing this criminal or terrorist, whoever it is who is opposing us. We don't want it to be a fair battle of wits between two people. We want to use our team. For example, after a challenging phone call, if you're on my team, I might say: Matthias, what did you hear? How did he sound to you? Are we making progress? Is this looking good or bad, and for what reasons? Do you have any suggestions? And we talk about this as a group, and we formulate and revise our strategies. I don't know how else to do it. It just makes sense to me. And I think that's true in business negotiations as well. There may be only one person talking at the table, but you might have two or three of your team with you. Their value is to listen and to assess and to understand, so that when your team takes a break and discusses where you are, you can tap into those impressions that other people have gotten. And I've often found that sometimes it's a very junior member of the team who says: I have a suggestion. You should try to find a way to listen to that and give it credence, because sometimes there are some really good ideas that, in our own experience, we forget to think about.

Matthias: Yeah, everyone has a vote. This is what I do as a leadership coach in big companies as well: Maybe the person who has less experience than you has a good suggestion, so please listen to them. And it leads me to the last point. It's about ego. When I get sales calls – and I have one in mind – this person assumed a lot, was talking a lot, and was also telling me that I was wrong. So he had a big ego during this phone call. I see this a lot of times. And to be honest, in the past I wasn't free of it either; I can't say I never had an ego. I think you saw a lot of people with a big ego who were then successful negotiators. What did they do to lose the ego in the negotiations? To put it away and say: Okay, now it's only target-oriented, my ego has no place here. Is there a secret?

Gary Noesner: When you're talking and throwing out your position, you're not really learning anything about the other party. Your goal is to get them to share more information with you. You might say: I've got some ideas that might help us resolve this issue, but I'd really like to hear what you're thinking right now, because for me to respond in the best way possible, I need to really feel confident that I know what your view is, and I want to know. And people will tell you. When asked in that way, people are very likely to say: Well, here's how I look at it. Now you're learning something. And that's valuable to formulating your strategy to move forward.

Matthias: Yeah. So we have three minutes left. Maybe you have some last words for my audience: How can they cope with hard situations where they think, okay, this is the end of my business life, I don't get it?

Gary Noesner: I think the primary lesson is to be authentic, be yourself, don't put unnecessary stress on yourself. Know that even if you perform perfectly, you're not always going to be victorious, because there's only so much that you can control. Once you realize that, it frees you up to act more natural and more authentic. I think that's the number one tip. The other is: if you don't know the answer to something, ask. I'm confused, or I don't understand – could you tell me more about that? And don't be in a rush. It's okay to say: We've discussed a lot of issues here today, and I really need to sit down with my team and go through this and see what's the best response to what you just said, because I don't want to just say something that's inaccurate or wrong. I want to take my time. It's okay to slow things down. Don't let people put a time constraint on you and say: I need to know now, right away. You say: I'm sorry, I'm not prepared to respond right now on that. That's a complex issue, and you're asking for a very quick solution. And if they say: Well, then we're done – you say: Okay, I'm sorry that didn't meet your expectations. Boom. It's okay to lose every once in a while. There's a great video out with Roger Federer, the tennis player. He talks about – here's, at the time, the greatest tennis player in the world – he said he only won 56 percent of his points. Even at that level.

Matthias: That's not so much, but he was successful.

Gary Noesner: Yeah, but he won enough to have those championships and hold those records. But even he realized that there are times where I'm not going to win this point. It's okay. You just keep doing the best you can, put that behind you, and focus on what's ahead.

Matthias: Thank you very much, Gary. And dear listeners, normally you know that I talk a lot, but this time you heard me only asking some questions and saying "yes, great" – so this is out of my ego. This was an interview only with and for Gary Noesner. Gary, thank you very much for your time and for your tips for my audience. They are tremendous. Ladies and gentlemen, please take them to heart, because he was – and is – one of the most successful hostage negotiators and crisis negotiators in the world. Thank you very much, Gary.

Gary Noesner: You're welcome.